Too Little, Too Late

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Hat Tip: By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press

Democrat John Edwards is endorsing former rival Barack Obama, fresh signs of the party establishment embracing the likely nominee even as Hillary Rodham Clinton refuses to give up her increasingly long-shot candidacy.

Edwards was to appear with Obama in Grand Rapids, Mich., as Obama campaigns in a critical general election battleground state, the Obama campaign said Wednesday.

The endorsement comes the day after Clinton defeated Obama by more than 2-to-1 in West Virginia. The loss highlighted Obama’s work to win over the “Hillary Democrats” — white, working-class voters who also supported Edwards in large numbers before he exited the race.

Clinton campaign Chairman Terry McAuliffe said in a written statement, “We respect John Edwards, but as the voters of West Virginia showed last night, this thing is far from over.”

Edwards, a former North Carolina senator and the 2004 vice presidential nominee, dropped out of the race in late January.

Both Obama and Clinton immediately asked Edwards for his endorsement, but he stayed mum for more than four months, even as the campaign focused on his home state in recent weeks.

Edwards considered making an endorsement in the weeks after leaving the campaign. People who talked to Edwards privately at the time said he was concerned about Obama’s readiness for the presidency and his electability. Clinton worked harder to woo both Edwards and his wife and impressed them both, those Edwards confidants said, but Edwards would have had a hard time endorsing her after criticizing her so much during the primary.

A person close to Edwards, speaking on condition of anonymity because the individual wasn’t authorized to talk to the media, said the former lawmaker wanted to get involved now to begin unifying the party. Obama also signed on to Edwards’ anti-poverty initiative, which he launched Tuesday with the goal of reducing poverty in the United States by half within 10 years.

When he made his decision, Edwards didn’t even tell many of his former top advisers because he wanted to make sure that he personally talked to Clinton to give her the news, said the person close to him. Edwards’ wife, Elizabeth, who has said she thinks Clinton has the superior health care plan, did not travel with him to Michigan and is not part of the endorsement.

John Edwards, the real champion of working class voters, doesn’t want to be associated with the blatant racism of West Virginia Democrats and for whatever its worth, and it ain’t worth much anymore, he’d rather be associated with Obama. Friends of mine have breathlessly told me of Edwards desire to get back in the game and win the second spot on the ticket. I told them that its too little, too late. He should have done it back in February before Super Tuesday. It means nothing now because the fight is all but over. He will not be considered by Obama because he did nothing to merit consideration.

62 thoughts on “Too Little, Too Late

  1. newman

    Too late for the second spot on the ticket, but just the right time to blow out hillarys candle she lit in West Virginia last night…..

    THANKS JOHN!!!!

  2. I don’t know, SB, my take on this is BETTER LATE THAN NEVER.

    I can get behind an Obama-Edwards ticket; an Obama-Webb ticket; but if he puts the Borg Queen on the ticket as a way of “healing” the damage she’s caused, I’m voting third party. I refuse to vote for any platform that has Hillary Clinton included.

    And I can only get behind Obama because his running mate may make the ticket more palatable, but I will be watching him because of reasons I’ve already given here and elsewhere.

  3. TPJ,

    I wouldn’t be supportive of either Webb or Edwards. Edwards has done the minimum required, and not when it was needed, and Webb has done nothing at all to be considered. Webb’s views on Affirmative Action are antediluvian, he spent too much time as a Republican, and he is too old.

  4. Chesapeake

    Senator Edwards is pushing for democratic victory, not a spot on the ticket. From the debates until now, he’s consistently denied desire to be anyone’s running mate. I agree that Edwards has not done enough to be the running mate … probably by design.

    Edwards’ endorsement is not too little, too late, though. Here are what the endorsement is worth: (1) the few delegates pledged to Edwards would offset Senator Clinton’s WV victory if they agree to shift to Senator Obama, putting Obama over 1900 delegates; (2) while Edwards is not a super, his endorsement of Obama is in harmony with the move of supers to Obama in recent days – needing probably less than 125 delegates to win, the nomination could soon be mathmatically over; (3) Edwards presence weakens Clintons argument for FL and MI delegates since Obama and Edwards took the same stances in both states (is it possible that Edwards’ and Obama’s delegates in those states can be counted collectively for Obama?); (4) Edwards campaigned very well in Kentucky – remember, less than 125 delegates needed for victory; etc.

    History has run it’s course. Obama just needs that magic number. This is where the leaders step in and end the madness.

    Obama would do well to have a soldier as his running mate. If Obama’s to beat Senator McCain, he may need someone like Senator Webb. His republican roots – should an Obama/Webb ticket win – will not trump Obama’s policies. The ticket’s almost a sure winner.

  5. I don’t necessarily think it is too little too late either. I also don’t think Edwards is looking to be number too. Together, their combined views might be too left of center for it to be a good ticket. Though Edwards is well liked in the Senate.

    I like the pairing with Jim Webb–it would really drive home the “reaching across the aisle” mantra. Also, based on excerpts from his new book, I think he would buy-in and support much of the Anti-Poverty march.

    However, I like Kathy Sebelius best.

  6. I think that it is definitely late, but not too late.

    John Edward’s endorsement is critical for this election. This is why I, every since John dropped out of the race, was e-mailing his campaign, demanding that he stopped riding the fence of political ambivalence; and endorse a candidate, no matter who it was.

    Of course, I hoped that John would endorse Senator Obama. I, like many others, saw the alliance that the two had built against Clinton during the early races. I honestly thought that an Obama/Edwards ticket could’ve been a winning ticket. And I sho’ think that if Edwards had manned up and endorsed Obama before Super Tuesday, this tragedy called the Clinton Campaign would be defeated and in our memories already.

    I really thought that John, supposedly being a man of his convictions, would support Senator Obama and help him win this nomination. But he didn’t. He stayed silent, and let Senator Obama go through this battle without his support.

    So, it makes me question: Why now? Why is it that Edwards feel that it is a good time to support Obama? What exactly is his motivation?

    And of course, I am of the belief that Edwards wants to be the VP.

    Today, I have different views on Senator Edwards. But in his defense, his family is in a crisis. And sometimes, family hardships cause you to act out of character. And now that we know that his wife actually supports Clinton’s health plan over Obama, Edwards could have very well not wanted to go against his dying wife. We don’t know what the dealio is.

    Do I think an Obama/Edwards ticket can win now, after all that has occurred? Not sure…

    My first feeling is that Senator Obama needs a strong, seasoned, well established running mate to offer some balance to those that will criticize Obama for being too green, too inexperienced, too young, too idealistic. I think that Obama and Edwards may compliment each other a bit too much.

    I guess we’ll have to see how all of this will fall out. But I know one thing, Edwards is trying to already bank on his endorsement. What did I get in my in box tonight? For the first time in months upon months, I got an e-mail from Edwards, asking for money for college hopefuls in NC. Yes, it’s for a great cause. But do I smell a great marketeer?

  7. Too Little, Too Late?

    I don’t know, SB.

    But, I never thought I’d see the day when I respected Bill ‘ The Weasel’ Richardson over John Edwards, but I do. I don’t think Richardson’s endorsement before Texas would have been enough to get Obama the 100k Latino votes to cancel out Rush Limbaugh’s Operation Chaos. I do think that his endorsement, and especially standing up for himself as the Clinton Camp Tried to label him an Uppity S#($, made me respect him more.

    The endorsement I thought I wanted was before Texas. But, the endorsement Obama got was right on time.

    Same here. Obama needed positive news coming out of West Virginia and he got it. Edwards overshadowed the other positive endorsement, and the more earth shattering where Hillpatine is concerned – NARAL going for Obama.

  8. Ian M.

    I think Edwards wanted his support to be decisive and go to the winner. His dawdling is no different than the superdelegates who are waiting to commit. Coming out for the winner when he has won is TLTL but since Clinton won’t stop perhaps this will spur the other dawdlers to action. They’re politicians, they will all go with Obama.

    As for the Vice Presidency, Edwards showed in 2004 that he is not a good support player. Edwards and Kerry didn’t click and they didn’t deliver the same message. Obama will need a strong supporter and Edwards likes the spotlight a little too much. Attorney General would be fine though.

    VP – 99.99% chance of being an old white guy. Think Chris Dodd with a better haircut. Although a neater choice would be someone like John Kitzhaber, former governor of Oregon with super strong health care credentials, but who looks like Sam Elliott.

  9. RisingTide

    I wouldn’t mind Clark — I’d love to see a genius on the ticket.

    If Edwards had endorsed earlier, he could have had anything EXCEPT veep. Now, well, Obama is running a meritocracy, let’s hope. Labor, AG, HUD?

    Sebelius is who the money is on.

    Webb does not want the job.

  10. abe ny

    Rendell for VP

    1. Deliver PA with 21 electoral votes. (And possibly neighboring Ohio with 20)
    2. Placate the “working class whites” and Catholics as described by HRC
    3. Neutralize any jewish opposition and possibly gain their support
    4. Campaign agressively on a wide range of economic issues.
    5. Given his age, will not try to undermine BO’s agenda
    6.Somewhat debunks the narrative of a potential woman VP pick by McCain given his ardent support of Hillary.

    BO will need PA, OH, or FL. If McCain selects Gov. Christ of Florida then BO will definitely need PA. Although BO may have to deal with bruised Casey feelings. Your thoughts?

  11. RisingTide

    Nobody in PA likes Rendell (well, maybe a few in Philly).

    I’m a Jew, and I live in PA, and I didn’t know that he was Jewish. And you know how Jews like to be proud of Jews who are big in whatever field they’re in.

    Rendell is just not a good choice. Better he pick Sebelius, better he pick Clark, better Edwards, ANYONE but RENDELL. Rendell sucks. If Pittsburgh can disown Santorum, then please let Philly disown Rendell. He’s that bumbling.

  12. My early guess is that Obama will pick Strickland. That will lock up OH, give him an in with these working class white folks, balance his youth and inexperience with someone older and experienced. If Obama really wants to get live, he’ll pick Richardson. His advisors will warn him against the perils of having two brown guys on the ticket, but he would lock up a black-brown coalition that accounts for 30% of the electorate.

  13. Angie-Nuvision

    Richardson would be a bad, bad choice. If Obama were smart, he would stay far, far away from the idea.
    And I’m not saying that because of the racial issues either. I just feel that Richardson is not strong and compelling enough. Obama has enough issues not being strong at times. He needs someone that is strikingly confident, solid, and credible.
    My opinion, of course…

  14. Zeitgeist9000

    I unsubscribed to John Edwards’ e-mail list. Edwards was by far the most gimmicky of the Democratic candidates this cycle. He only won one election, and that was with a narrow plurality against a Republican with the first name “Lauch.” Clinton is withstanding the pressure to drop out; the chances of her landing a major endorsement at this point are nil, however. It’s basically up to the superdelegates to decide who is the stronger candidate against John McCain. I’d rather have her argument re: electability than Obama’s delegate math.

  15. Rikyrah and everyone:

    It was mentioned that Edwards and Kerry was at cross-purposes when they ran. As I recall, Edwards wanted to challenge the Ohio results; Kerry mailed it in and went skiing, which broke the promise he made to supporters to challenge the results if there was any funny business and we all know Ken Blackwell pretty much engaged in funny business which delivered the White House back to Chimpy.

    I wasn’t really aware of Jim Webb’s views on affirmative-action because I went to a dinner here in Northern Virginia where he got challenged on it by the Progressive Democrats of America (Virginia) chapter, who “politely” reminded him it was progressive Virginia voters who gave him his Senate seat and told him not to forget it.

    He started singing a different tune.

    Russ Feingold would be a perfect choice for Obama’s running mate; provided that Obama doesn’t try to muzzle him too much. I was thinking if Obama picks a woman, he should go for my home senator, Barbara Boxer. That lil’ lady is no joke – she stood up on the floor and challenged the Ohio results, if you recall.

    I think Chris Dodd would be a good VP pick as well; I like Richardson, but as Rikyrah stated, he waited too long to swing his support to Obama in time to make inroads with the Latino vote before they realized they were had.

    I also like the idea of maybe floating the invite to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. – consider he brings the legacy to the ticket, plus he’s strong on the environment, especially spearheading projects in impoverished areas of this country that disproportionally affects people of color (like putting dumps in all Black neighborhoods for toxic poisioning and whatnot).

    Maybe once Al Gore finally drops his endorsement on the “O” man, the Borg Queen finally packs it in; there’s no way I see him coming out for Hillary, not after what was reported in the Vanity Fair article: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/clinton200711

    They deliberately tanked his chances at the White House back in 2000, and this was before the Monica scandal. It would be fitting revenge if Gore was a vengeful man, which he has not shown since he left the scene.

    Having a Nobel Peace Prize and an Oscar in your back pocket goes a long way towards easing betrayal, though.

  16. Enough Already!

    Who cares?

    The man couldn’t even get reelected in his home state of North Carolina and has already been on a losing presidential ticket. most coincidentally, i find it convincingly shallow on behalf of Edwards that after all his talk on the importance of a universal health care plan when stumping for President, he supports the candidate whose plan – by Edwards’ wife’s own admission – is not universal (In People Magazine, Elizabeth Edwards blasted Obama for “misleading” the people for calling his health care plan “universal” when it isn’t.)

    Does anyone have integrity? To stand up for their beliefs even if it might mean that they won’t get a cabinet position or VP slot?

    What’s more troubling, as a WOMAN, I find it so disturbing that on the heels of NARAL endorsing Obama, we hear Obama condescendingly refer to a female reporter as “sweetie”-

    http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/

    why don’t we talk about that?

  17. Angie-Nuvision

    Here’s a question for you wonderful political scientists. **smile**
    Is there a rule that prevents someone from being VP beyond two terms?
    Not that I would suggest that AG be VP again… I just wondered was the option available.

    Back in the day, I hoped for a Gore/Obama ticket. I think that could’ve been the winning ticket that takes the White House in Nov.
    But a Obama/Gore ticket? It would just seem too weird if Gore was VP again.
    Some were suggesting that Gore wanted to be considered on a couple of the blogs. But I wasn’t sure about the rules.
    Someone, anyone…Insight please.

  18. Angie-Nuvision

    Y’all, I just pray that whatever Obama does, he won’t lose his mind and select Clanton as a running mate. The idea of hearing that damn woman’s voice until November makes me want to go and mix up a Clorox shake.

  19. Chesapeake

    SB, the endorsement has already proven a little worth to Senator Obama. The USW finally updated it’s endorsement from Senator Edwards to Obama. Six South Carolinians of Edwards’ 19 pledgees switched to Obama. Also, it’s arguable that Edwards was catalaytic in the commitment of two more supers to Obama, today.

    On another note, Obama looks and sounds pretty good when he’s swinging the wood against McCain and Bush. It will be nice when he’s free to totally unleash against them.

  20. Chesapeake

    Funny, Angie, but true. I share your sentiment and will request from you the recipe if it happens.

  21. Zeitgeist,

    Party rules make it clear that delegates are the deciding factor in the Democratic nomination process. That tricky issue aside, Clinton has absolutely no chance of winning the general election, even if Obama were hit by a bus and she received the nomination. Simply put she has blown the black vote, which she would need to win in November. Also, it’s hard to make the argument that you’re more electable in November when you’ve been losing since February.

  22. newman

    Tru dat, But she still gonna hold out for that last hail mary. Her right wing allies are trying to pump life back into the REV.WRIGHT issue daily. Not to mention, Obama gots to walk on egg shells and not make the mental mistakes like calling people “sweetie.” Yes, it’s petty. but do understand she needs a fumble or an interception. I do think the party realize it, thats why the endorsements are starting to rain on him.

  23. Rick

    I read that a source close to Edwards said he would prefer the Attorney General position over VP, given his background as a lawyer.

  24. RisingTide

    Edwards would do better as Attorney General, sure enough. We need a firebrand to root out those stupid shits they put on everywhere (including traditional helpful places where they WERE rooting out racism… till chimp came along)

  25. Enough Already!

    TripLBee,

    Your revisionist version of history would lead one to believe that winning key Democratic states such as Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia (a state which no President has failed to win in the Primary since 1916) doesn’t count for anything. Hillary Clinton has won the aforementioned states and all of those contests have happened since February.

    If Hillary blew the black vote than I am certain you will agree with me that Barack Obama has blown the white working class vote, which he will need to win in November…

    Think about it, sweetie!

  26. RisingTide

    Bill Clinton didn’t win the white vote.
    Carter didn’t win the white vote.

    Sorry, but the facts don’t line up in Hillary’s corner.

  27. Dear Hillary supporters,

    Think about this…Hillary lost the nomination. Deal with your anguish, get over it, and work to help elect the nominee. If your strategy is to sink the Obama campaign so Hillary can run again in 4 years, please forget it. If people don’t want her this time, they won’t in 4 years, even after the third term of Bush that you are trying to make happen.

  28. sixseven

    Enough Already:

    You can express all you want which states she has won and how strong and experienced she is…You can be as cynical about Obama and which states he has lost and how weak and inexperienced he is as much as you want….

    The winner of any race is the one who satisfies the rules for winning BEFORE the race begins, and not by maneuvering, manipulating and finessing the race rules DURING competition.

    The judges of THIS race—the Supers—cannot and will not award the race to the second place finisher unless the one in first place commits a foul.

    Barack Obama ain’t trying to commit no fouls at this time…
    way too shrewd for that… so the premise that she is staying in because “anything can happen” is confounded nonsense.

    Losing is never pleasant, honey, but in time, you WILL get over it!

  29. Enough Already,

    Unlike Sen. Clinton, I don’t assume that any state is more or less important than any other. And as long as you’re keen to point out historical revisionism, Obama won Texas. Finally, Obama didn’t blow the white working class vote as evidenced by his win in Iowa and his blowout victories in such white working class strongholds as Idaho, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, and on and on and on. As is Clinton’s wont, she only counts white working class people in states she wins. Lastly, Clinton has run a campaign designed to appeal to white racism. That is why she has blown the black vote. Paradoxically, that is also why Obama is not doing better with white working class people. He has not gone out of his way to insult and belittle them. In any event, Clinton is now officially irrelevant and Obama will demolish the hapless McCain in November.

  30. Two hilarious quotes today:

    Number one
    Clarke Reed: Solid south “over”

    Is the Republican solid South over?

    “Yeah. Oh yeah.” He said, “I eat lunch every day at Buck’s Cafe. Obama’s picture is all over the wall.”

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/

    I told you…most important election this week was Mississippi Congressional District One.

    When you can’t use TWO Black Bogeymen in Mississippi…..well…..

  31. Wolcott of The Atlantic, on Obama’s response to Bush and McCain:

    “…he firmly, deftly mummy-wrapped Bush and McCain together and dropped them off at the pier. It’s rather impressive to see a first-term senator chastise the President of the United States and the presumptive nominee of the Republican Party as if he were the headmaster and they the ones guilty of infractions unworthy of upperclassmen. That’s one of the benefits of having an oratorical voice that sounds tall–it automatically adds height to every utterance, allowing them to drop like acorns and make a nice thunk when they bounce off of the nearest thick skull.”

  32. sixseven

    TripLBee,

    I agree. During the primaries, Barry had to be gentlemanly and couldn’t dump on the shrew, lest he be considered a bully. But during the GE, it’s going to be open season baby, mano a mano.

    I can’t wait for the debates. This senile, modulation-challenged old man will be wasted by Obama and his lifeline to Lieberman and Graham won’t be available.

    The stammering and stuttering wooden delivery will be pushed to new heights as Barry lights into him on his paltry policies.

  33. Rick

    “I can’t wait for the debates. This senile, modulation-challenged old man will be wasted by Obama and his lifeline to Lieberman and Graham won’t be available.”

    TripleBee, Sixseven– I agree. No more of this damsel in distress BS! Obama will get to Bring The Noise, Bring the Funk!! And I too, Can’t Wait.

  34. Rick

    OT: re Bush Mideast Trip

    Did anyone else peep the fact that on one day our President was spreading lies implying that Obama would negotiate with terrorists…but on the VERY NEXT DAY, Bush was not “negotiating”, but begging with the King of Saudi Arabia to increase oil production. An idea to which the King basically said, Buzz off.

    *Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia.

    Not only did I find this filled with irony (and hypocrisy), I was basically annoyed/embarrased about how the President Bush continues to damage American prestigue abroad.

    I would love to see Obama become the President if nothing more than to uplift our standing in the world.

  35. Enough Already!

    Here’s the deal…because of the way the delegates were apportioned in Texas (in a way that happened to favor Obama more than Hillary) based on caucus + primary votes, Obama walked away with more delegates than Clinton. HOWEVER, he did not win Texas. Clinton won the popular vote in Texas. Check your facts. And if you’ve gone out volunteering for your candidate in any of the caucus primaries, as I have…I think you will agree (regardless of your candidate’s success) that caucusing is wholly undemocratic and will probably not be used the next go round in Presidential primaries.

    And to the other point that was made about BHO securing the white working class votes of the CAUCUS states you mentioned like (Idaho, etc) …that is a direct testament to his campaign’s superiority in organizing caucuses and nothing more – because if he WERE able to secure that vote than he wouldn’t have lost West VA, Ohio, and PA (which has that kind of voter) by such large margins.

  36. Enough Already!

    I disagree that Clinton has built a campaign designed to appeal to white racism.

    Having to resort to making such a point underscores your candidate’s inability to successfully connect with a particular demographic…

    Even your candidate seems to want an easy solution to the answer – John Edwards.

    Have you been out in the field to volunteer and speak with white, working class voters in the states that have supported Hillary? Before you disregard who they are and why they (generally) support Hillary you might want to first listen to their concerns.

    I am Black. And I have voluntered out in the field…and I have met some who support Obama and some who support Hillary. The majority (obviously) support Hillary. But I will say to call them racist (which is essentially what you’re doing by saying that Hillary’s campaign has appealed to their racist sensibilities) is to shut down on any real understanding of what is going on with their communities.

    Not a very hopeful solution to the problem.

  37. “in a way that happened to favor Obama more than Hillary”

    And what way is that? You mean that because Obama supporters were more likely to make the extra effort required to do well in a caucus, that this is somehow “wholly undemocratic”? I call BS on that statement, since these fired up voters are the ones more likely to decide elections than the wishy washy ones.

    Like most Hillary supporters, and the candidate herself, you are in serious denial. Your candidate lost simply because she, and you, were outhustled. And the Obama supporters didn’t do it by bending or breaking the rules like your candidate is trying to do. Get over it and work to support the nominee and prevent a third term of Bush policies, which none of us can afford.

    BTW…I have spoken to several white Hillary supporters and their ignorance and racism is something they wear proudly on their sleeve so I am not buying your selling points about that demographic. What are their concerns? Besides being afraid of a “little too much change”, i.e., voting for a non-white candidate. This is the same demographic that flocked to vote for Bernie Epson when Harold Washington was running for mayor of Chicago. Quite simple, they fear that “the niggers are taking over”. You are deluded if you think otherwise.

  38. RisingTide

    Well, since middle class starts at $150,000 this year, thanks to McBush, I guess I can speak to that, Enough.

    I’ve met the Hillary supporters, and most of them would vote for ANY Democrat. They are sick and tired and frustrated, and want someone in their corner.

    Obama will be in their corner (did I hear something about extending affirmative action to white WV? if so, it’s a good idea. affirmative action based on wealth and income, not color).

  39. TripLBee

    Enough Already,

    The Democratic nominee is selected by winning a majority of delegates. Obama won more delegates in Texas, hence he won Texas. Any other nuanced tabulation is irrelevant.

  40. Enough Already!

    Ernesto-
    Texas used a turnout formula to determine the number of delegates to award certain areas of Texas. The turnout formula was a rewarding system, in a sense. For this primary, the urban centers with a large population of Black or young voters were awarded the greater number of delegates whereas fewer delegates went to poorer Hispanic areas that tended to favor Clinton. I’m not saying that this was orchestrated on behalf of your candidate’s campaign – it’s just the way it was and that system favored Obama. I

    I attended a caucus in one of these caucus states and no one was even checking people in! How can that be assured to be fair? I’m speaking straight from personal experience when I say that it’s not democratic. Also, what’s “wishy washy” about ballot-voting?

    Rising Tide-
    You’ve heard from Hillary supporters that they will support any democrat in the fall. I’ve heard from Hillary supporters (and am one) who will not vote Democrat in the fall if Hillary is not the nominee. We differ; I guess we’ll have to see in November.

    TripLBee-
    Hillary Clinton winning the popular vote in Texas is not a “nuanced tabulation” but a fact…Obama walked away with more delegates because he won ONLY the Texas caucuses. But I’ve already discussed how that’s possible (see Ernesto).

    You all will just hate Hillary just to hate, but I believe Hillary will be the nominee and is the only candidate to beat McCain in the fall.

  41. Enough, how is the turnout formula undemocratic? By wishy washy, I meant in comparison to caucus voters who would probably show a higher turnout rate in the general.

    You said earlier:

    “Before you disregard who they are and why they (generally) support Hillary you might want to first listen to their concerns.”

    I’m still waiting for your answer on what their concerns are and why Hillary is better than Obama in dealing with these concerns.

  42. RisingTide

    Enough Already, and the increased votes in rural Nevada also favored Obama? Sure, or maybe he favored the Democrats.

  43. Enough Already!

    Ernesto,
    I’m not saying that the turnout formula was undemocratic. It is my opinion that caucuses are undemocratic.

    As far as “still waiting for my answer”…that’s exactly my point – why ask me? I do not fit that demographic. Ask them yourself, which is what I suggested to you earlier…get out there, volunteer!, help your candidate win the heart of West Virginia and Kentucky! cuz honestly, we could pontificate forever…

    Rising Tide-
    You cite Nevada as evidence of your candidate winning the rural vote but taking into consideration the fact that she still won the rural vote there (visit CNN.com election center) plus the fact that he was not the only one to win in rural areas and your argument becomes weaker to me. Again, I never said that your candidate cannot secure the votes of white, working class folks…he certainly has as evidenced by the smaller numbers he’s pulled in NV and WVA…but those numbers also suggest that this group is not his base. And he’ll have to pull a lot more than the percentages he is pulling now to be successful in November. He’ll need to pull the percentages that Hillary has.

    No candidate has ever won a presidency who has not won West Virginia…not since 1916 has that happened.

  44. RisingTide

    Enough Already,

    The democrats haven’t won the white vote since LBJ. That should tell you something. And it’s not working class, anymore. Not when middle class starts at 150,000. We’ll just call it like it is and say lower-lower class, in the interest of accuracy.

    The argument for caucuses is to have the more informed and active party members decide who runs.

    Obama won the whitest state in the nation, he will win Oregon, which is over 90% white — there is a significant problem that he has, and it isn’t white voters! It’s appalachia, in general.

    That said, he really ought to campaign there, and edwards has extracted promises of a Poverty Tour…

  45. Enough Already!

    Rising Tide,

    Huh? The democrats haven’t won the white vote since LBJ? Quite a general statement. Have you seen the electoral map after fmr President Bill Clinton’s victories in 1992 and 1996?

    Agreed that the correct term of use isn’t “white working class voters”…maybe Applachian voters is the better term. His problem seriously exists still.

    No shit! He really ought to have campaigned in these contests…and to a certain extent, he did. He outspent Hillary two, sometimes three, times over in the states in question…he had hundreds more paid staff than Hillary…AND he sent Michelle to private events (why not make them accesible and open to the public?) and he stopped through for a few, limited speeches. Why did he not want to? I think it’s becuase he didn’t want to legitimize the fact that this contest to win the nomination is still in play… and also if he made a concerted effort to campaign and the results were not favorable to him that would give superdelegates cause to pause and think about his actual chances for the nomination in November.

    About the caucus argument, I will post below a quote from an article that I read earlier this morning in the New York Sun. I am posting it becuase it neatly sums up whatever I could have said in this post about my thoughts on caucuses. It follows:

    “Although Mr. Obama has won more states and more elected delegates by far, the system by which he won is deeply flawed. The system of caucuses not only discriminates against those who cannot afford to spend hours engaging in internecine arguments, such as working class voters, shift workers, mothers, and old people — the very voters that have overwhelmingly backed Mrs. Clinton — but caucus states award delegates out of proportion to the numbers who voted.

    In addition, closed primaries which only allow registered Democrats to vote have, except for Illinois, voted for Mrs. Clinton. Mr. Obama has tended to win states that allow independents and Republicans to vote for the Democratic nominee. Who should pick the Democrats’ champion, she might ask, Democrats or Republicans?”

    http://www.nysun.com/opinion/clintons-claim/76800/?print=3860731121

    Case in point, Obama collected 13 more delegates than Hillary from his victory in South Dakota; whereas Hillary only collected 10 more delegates than Obama from her victory in Pennsylvania.

    True, this primary process is surely winding down and these points should only be essential in any real kind of consideration about who should be the nominee…that aside, however, this is why i feel the caucus system is not democratic…and should definitely be redrawn for future contests.

    And also, I think it is absolutely presumptous of you to assume that $400 haircut John Edwards working a “poverty” tour through the area is going to win their hearts over because they want to be reminded of their poverty and poverty in fact is the principle issue that they want to be addressed.

    And yall wonder where the idea of elitism comes from…

  46. Enough Already!

    Let me correct the last few paragraphs:

    And also, I think it is absolutely presumptous of you to assume that $400 haircut John Edwards working a “poverty” tour through the area is going to win their hearts over because #1) all of them are poor and consider themselves as such, therefore #2) they want to be reminded of their poverty and #3) poverty in fact is the principle issue that they want to be addressed.

    And yall wonder where the idea of elitism comes from…

  47. Enough Already!

    And need I remind you that Edwards has been on a poverty tour since he began trying to run for the nomination….

    and where is he now?

  48. RisingTide

    Enough Already!

    — Interestingly enough, Edwards got more votes from Middle Class (over $50 k) than he did from poorer people.

    Yeah, Obama has problems with Appalachia. Some of it is because he’s mixed. WV seceeded from VA because they didn’t like slaveowners NOR slaves.

    As far as I understand it, there has been a significant amount of help given to people in caucus states with childcare or mobility issues.

    If you don’t like open voting, Enough already, how far in advance must a Republican switch to be good enough Democrat for you?

    My father and mother in law switched 30 days before the election, in Pennsylvania. So did about 500,000 other people. Red Republicans both of them, but glad to get a chance to choose.

  49. Chesapeake

    I think even Senator Obama knew well advance that Appalachia and rural areas are difficult for him to win. Make no mistake about it, though, that he can potentially beat Senator McCain in those areas with Senators Clinton and Edwards working there. This point is made by the fact that the UMWA updated yesterday its endorsement from Edwards to Obama. Senator Byrd’s efforts will help.

    The leaders in these areas finally realized the urgency of commiting now I think they are concerned that their people, members, workers, constituents, and their families are drifting astray to vote against their interests in November. These commitments lead you to believe that putting boots on the ground and money in those areas will be a major part of the democratic strategy from now until ….

  50. RisingTide

    He has been winning many rural districts west of the Mississippi. Not all farmers CARE what skin color you got.

    Sadly, Appalachia does, it’s a valid part of their history.

  51. Enough Already,

    You claim to have been out there volunteering, so I cannot believe you have not heard the racist and ignorant remarks of many Hillary supporters. You want to know what the “concerns” are that these folks have. Here’s a few:

    Obama is a Muslim.

    (I know that you have seen the chain emails on this topic at the very least)

    Obama hates America

    Obama won’t salute the flag

    Obama will allow dark skinned Muslims to come into the country and destroy everything.

    etc etc

    “Who should pick the Democrats’ champion, she might ask, Democrats or Republicans?”

    This, like most Hillary supporter arguments, is a red herring. Who chooses the president in the general election?

  52. Enough Already!

    In earnest, I am no longer interested in pontificating about these issues any longer. I am off to volunteer (again) for my candidate in the remaining contests.

    I admire the optimism you all have displayed in speaking about your candidate’s chances with the Appalachian folks…I hope that you all put YOUR boots ON and hit the ground to confront this racism you all view is so apparently the reason why these folks aren’t voting for Obama NOW.

    oh! a final thought: I hope Senator Obama will be as willing to work on behalf of Senator Clinton to win the hearts of our community members (black americans) as well as the latte sipping white folks once all is said and done. You spoke of her as past tense, but she’s still in this to win it!

    See you all in the field.

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